i met up with a friend from india recently. indian men are good drinkers, i’d say. i had three pints of beer while he downed four easily like mineral water. then, one of his indian friends came along and sucked down a pint in ten seconds. the beer was good. neither one of us suffered a hangover the following day. beer, goooood.
much as i would like it to be, this entry isn’t about beer. this friend from india (interestingly he is not of the indian race) is easily one of the most colorful characters among the people i know. through our conversation, i got to know some really intriguing things about india. their dowry system, in particular. the conversation we had went something like this:
friend: so in india, we have the dowry system.
me: yeah i know that one. the bride’s family has to give a large sum of money to the groom’s family right?
friend: right. it is strange because not only does the bride’s family “lose” a daughter, they lose a large chunk of their wealth at the same time.
me: how much would the dowry be usually?
friend: well, it depends on the status of the two families.
me: say if someone were to marry you, how much would it be?
friend: taking into consideration my current job and my salary, and the fact that it requires me to travel around the world…
me: yeah…
friend: …the dowry would be equivalent to millions of singapore dollars in relative terms.
me: (horrified) millions?!
friend: yeah!
seriously, millions? who would be able to afford that? even for the rich, millions of dollars is still a lot of money! i still can’t get over it even after three days.
he also mentioned that up to today, there are still many arranged marriages in india. the parents get to decide who their children marry. now, not only would the woman’s family have to give his family a large sum of money, she does not even get to marry someone she loves!
so, why do indian women still get married?
my friend couldn’t answer this question. nor could his indian friends.
one more thing. if the bride’s family could afford a large dowry, it would mean she’s wealthy enough to fend for herself. what would she need a husband for? i just don’t get it. am i being too practical and missing something here?
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goes by the name veron (english) or wanting (chinese). a definitive leo born august 1, 1984. a solo traveler. loves cats, coffee, sensual music, yummy food and technology. when she's not at her job as an IS developer for the government, she's likely to be out dining, or visiting an interesting art gallery or event.
Haha.. I always thought all this only existed in the past or in Bollywood movies. Seems, it exists even today. :(
Though, it does depend on which part of India, one talks about. In certain more ‘westernised’ states/cities, arranged marriages and dowries are becoming rare sights. View all comments by NTT
Yup, you are right. This practice is carried out with only certain families. But still… View all comments by Veron
omg…u is better drinker than me!! 1 mug and that’s it for me. View all comments by tyc76
Well I’ve had a lot of practice! View all comments by Veron
Back in the old days, the dowry was relative to the groom’s social status. Somehow, that kept the bride in that caste, and prevented the bride from moving up the social ladder.
Today, I think we view it more as a tradition. At the end, love don’t worth any amount of money… View all comments by Brennan
hmm, it is a question of perspective. Perhaps, the societal cost of having an unmarried woman in the family far outweighs the dowry expense. Perhaps, she is seen as a liability rather than as an asset (why so? hmm there is a reason, but that is way too complicated for this comment).
The societal cost, of course, is a manifestation of the reproductive cost of staying unmarried in India. Basically, a woman who isn’t married cannot have a child (even if she does have one out of wedlock, she cannot raise it “properly” because of societal pressure).
Anyway, the point is social systems evolve in arbitrary ways, though ultimately the underlying/ultimate need… no purpose for every person in this world is to survive and reproduce. end of story.
btw, dowry is illegal in India.
woah, I can’t believe I wrote all of that :D! what say you? View all comments by cray
i luv ur web design…..v dreamlike! View all comments by dreamy
Hey cray,
I also agree that societal pressure is probably the driving factor behind women wanting to get married. Interesting bit about the dowry system being illegal — my friend never mentioned that! View all comments by Veron
Women who are unmarried are looked down upon by others and maybe thought of as even unlucky. The parents see it as their duty to send off their daughters to a good family. If not they might be subject to gossip. The whole family might be criticised.
This is very much entrenched in Indian society (in India) and it might take ages of reform and education before there might be changes. View all comments by viswali
very status-conscious but the caste system still thrives in india, i think.
P.S. Thx for visiting my blog. I just checked out yours today and love the background castle very much. Is it fact(made into graphics) or fiction ? Looks like Neuenstein in Ger.
;p View all comments by tigerfish
hmmm…if ur fren is not from the indian race, he still qualifies to the dowry? View all comments by Naime
Hey viswali,
Thanks for your input. I think you explained everything. View all comments by Veron
Hey tigerfish,
Yup this is the world famous schloss neuschwanstein in Germany. One of my top ten places to visit this lifetime. Disney actually drew inspiration from it for its castle(s). View all comments by Veron
Hey Naime,
My friend’s family doesn’t partake in this custom. Only some Indian families do. View all comments by Veron
Veron, your blog readers have already made some very analytical and logical comments on the hows and whys of this evil plaguing the Indian society. Although we did talk about it at length, I’d like to add my 2 cents here.
It is a very complex society here. Casteism, discrimination, corruption, racism, communalism, and god knows what else is rampant. Even the most educated families are yet to be ‘educated’ in the true sense of the word. And most of all, women are yet to get the respect that they deserve. And that is one of the reasons why unmarried women are looked down upon by people. And unmarried mothers are almost non-existent. Why, a man can remain a bachelor all his life without anyone questioning his intentions.
Someone was right in pointing it out that girl chilren are most of the times seen as liabilities. Of course, she can fend for herself once she grows up, but she knows she’s up against the whole world. Not everyone is ready for that.
It is illegal indeed, but does that stop people from practicing it? And it’s not like one of those laws that the government passes to help the citizens. I mean if you enact a law saying rapists would have their organs chopped off without any trial, I am sure crime against women would drop completely. But here we have a scenario where laws don’t mean anything. If the groom’s family refused for the marriage because the bride’s family were not ready to pay dowry, what can the latter party do? At best, go to the cops and complain. The groom’s family can find a thousand reasons why they are not ready for the marriage. And now the bride’s family is going to have a hell of a time looking for another groom. So, it’s not laws, but people’s mentality, outlook, attitude that needs to changed. For god’s sake there are parts where newly-married women are killed/burnt alive because they failed to bring sufficient dowry.
Okay. Enough of sounding like a doomsday soothsayer. India is not all about dowry system, or any of the evils that I mentioned. It is a country full of promises and potentials. Just needs a revolutionary awakening. Maybe we just lack the right leaders. And it’s not like these things happen in every other family/city. The chief perpetrators would mostly be some rustic bumpkins, the frogs in the well, if you like. And folks in cities are westernized and if you tell them of such things, it’s very probable that they’d be surprised too. Chances are that if you have met an Indian abroad, he/she would have a modern outlook towards everything. Narrow-minded people hardly move out of their shitholes.
Veron, thanks a lot for your interest in India. Please go thru the following if you can. Kinda lengthy but should help you know more about India. You’ll know what it’s about.
http://63n1.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_archive.html
http://63n1.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html View all comments by Beni
there was once in my Social Studies class, we had a project to do about beliefs… or something like that.
My team did about the dowry system. we argued the flaws of the dowry system, and what had happened to some of the brides due to the dowry system; abuse i think. i can’t recall much of my statement. but i know i felt quite frustrated that such systems existed.
but we were solely against the dowry system based on the fact that it is against freewill and human rights to force someone to marry without consent or is forced to consent. it was a heated debate really *laughs.
but then again, their cultures are so different from ours. Who are we to judge their beliefs right? View all comments by aishah
Has anyone thought about the issue of “sex”? View all comments by Harro!
Hey Beni,
Good grief! There are actually women who get killed for not giving enough dowry? Damn, my blood is boiling now.
The next time I hear any man complaining about women “having it better”, he’s going to get a hard kick in the nuts.
Thanks for sharing. I’m sure all of us here are much enlightened about Indian culture. View all comments by Veron
Hey aishah,
For all we know, they judge our beliefs too. They probably can’t fathom the thought of women having equal rights as men, going out to work the same jobs and earning the same keep.
Our lives certainly seem really different. I, for one, am glad that I don’t have to worry about getting burned alive for not paying enough dowry! View all comments by Veron
Hey Harro,
What? You can’t be serious! View all comments by Veron
I’ve read from Straits Times sometimes back. A lady got splashed on the face with acid by her suitor, because she rejected him. That is not an isolated case, there are many cases of such brute treatment in India, some got slashed in the face etc. I can’t imagine living life in fear everyday, for every men we rejected, our lives or face is at stake. View all comments by Xanthe
Damn! That sure sounds dangerous. Women in Singapore have it good. View all comments by Veron
I’m a middle-aged Indian woman and author, who had an arranged marriage 33 years ago, with no dowry. I’m still happily married. Marriage in our culture is considered a safety net for women. A single woman in India, to this day, is a stigma on the family (something must be wrong, including lesbianism, genetic mutation, disease). Most Indian parents feel it is their duty to find a good husband for their daughters, so she will be provided for and protected when they themselves are gone.
My novel, THE DOWRY BRIDE, is scheduled for publication by Kensington Books in Sept. 2007. It is the story of one young woman trapped in India’s arranged marriage and dowry system, and a culture of fascinating contradictions. It describes her adventurous journed to freedom and ultimately happiness. It will also explain some of the cultural reasons for parents’ need to see their daughters married. My website has more info. at: http://www.shobhanbantwal.com View all comments by Shobhan Bantwal
From my understanding, most of those who still practice this drowry system in India are mostly the un-educated.
Among most the educated, the drowry system is no longer practiced. View all comments by Kevin
I read somewhere that the dowry was given by the bride’s parents to coax the groom’s family to treat their daughter well. Apparently, it’s better not to get married (and save all that money) than to get married with insufficient dowry!
And Veron, you said it right: women in Singapore have it good!
Does that mean that the next time I hear a Singaporean woman complain about their husbands, I can kick them too? ;) View all comments by think2ink
Actually what I meant was: Women in Singapore have it good compared to those in certain countries, such as India! Haha! But whether Singapore women have it better than Singapore men is another issue altogether! I have my own views on this of course, but we’ll save the debate for another day! View all comments by Veron
Well,
I do not know what exactly the writer wanted to say. But I would say it is just a “cooked-up” story.
At present, the situation is quite different. Now a days, even if it is arranged marriage, both, the girl and boy has right to say “NO” if they do not like the would-be companion. The writer have totally wrong concepts of arranged marriage. So, its better forthe writer not to comment on it.
Dowry system is getting erassed rapidly. However, if you go to rural area, you may still observe it. Dowry system is not only practised in India. It is also eslewhere… however, as far as I know, in other society the Bride’s parents receive it from Groom’s side…. as if its selling a the Bride. View all comments by Sun
Okay, I take offense at the fact that you said I cooked up a story, or believed a story that someone cooked up. In case you couldn’t understand my post (which I suspect to be so, judging from your atrocious spelling and butchering of the language), I had clearly indicated that it was based on a conversation I had with a friend. My friend is from India. So are the two other people who were also involved in the same conversation. Any concept I had regarding arranged marriage stemmed from that conversation with actual native Indians. Your statement that I “have totally wrong concepts of arranged marriage” in India is therefore totally inaccurate and groundless.
Also, by saying that my concepts (based on what my friend from India told me) are “totally wrong”, you are implying that you yourself know better. May I ask, were you born in India? Have you lived there all your life? If the answer to either question is “no”, then what is the basis for your arrogance in thinking that an alien like yourself would know more about India than Indians do? View all comments by Veron
I better not seek any certification from you on my spellings and language…. we cares anyway..
I am a native Indian and lived there pretty long years. But that’s not matter.
You have no right to write any negative things arrogantly (just by hearing from some friend, which I bet you would not name here)
Well, I understand, your post and also read that your post was based on conversation with your friend (who you said was not Indian by race)… But do you think that is the general case all over in India?
Same is the case of arrange marriage…. may be whatever you have written is true if it were done 20/30 years ago.
BTW, did you friend told you those things and asked you to put on the net? or did you tel them that you have put it in the net? View all comments by Sun
Sun dude (or whatever your name is - Suraj, Surya…), you need to go back to elementary English school. You know, work on your grammar and stuff. That aside, I am the Indian friend of Veron’s who told her about this whole thing. And I am thankful for the fact that she has blogged it. It’s not like people don’t know about it anyway.
Nowhere did she mention that ALL arranged marriages require dowry for success, and neither did she mention that ALL women whose marriages were arranged end up getting ill-treated by their in-laws. It’s just that she wanted to (based on what I told her) bring it to others notice that this evil practice is still prevalent in India.
Dude read the Indian papers. Haven’t you heard about brides getting killed because they couldn’t bring enough dowry? Come to think of it, one Indian with an American green card killed his wife for that reason couple of years back. Now he must be with his new husband (I’m sure you didn’t get this joke) in some American prison (if he wasn’t deported back to India). And yes, it was in the papers.
Of course, a large percentage of arranged marriages end up as ‘happily ever after’ stories and it’s not like every other Indian man is lusting for dowry, but it’d be wrong to deny its existence. It is very much in vogue for many families (societies?) and the common good would be to do something about it. If you aren’t part of that dowry-seekers bandwagon, good for you. But, this, my friend, is one classic example of brushing the dust under the carpet.
Anyways read the other comments. You are not the only Indian who read and commented here. Check out what other Indians have to say. View all comments by Beni
Thanks Beni :)
Hey Sun, here’s my response to yours:
“I better not seek any certification from you on my spellings and language…. we cares anyway..”
If you are gonna make any groundless remarks directed at what I said, make sure you actually understood its meaning in the first place. But dude, you could not even grasp the meaning of most of the things I wrote.
“I am a native Indian and lived there pretty long years. But that’s not matter. You have no right to write any negative things arrogantly (just by hearing from some friend, which I bet you would not name here)”
When the heck did I write any negative things arrogantly? I’m more inclined to think that you are the one. Several Indians have already left comments above. None of them took any offense to what I wrote. FYI, my friend has already left his comment way before you did.
“Well, I understand, your post and also read that your post was based on conversation with your friend (who you said was not Indian by race)”
Now, why would it even matter if he wasn’t Indian by race? You are seriously sounding like a racist now. He may be a Caucasian for all I care. As long as he’s born and bred in India, with generations before him living in India, his knowledge about India wouldn’t be too far from the truth.
“… But do you think that is the general case all over in India?”
You are joking right? To answer you in plain simple English that you may actually understand: No, as I have already indicated in my post. “Many” does not equate “all over”, dumbass.
“Same is the case of arrange marriage…. may be whatever you have written is true if it were done 20/30 years ago.”
Only “maybe”?
“BTW, did you friend told you those things and asked you to put on the net? or did you tel them that you have put it in the net?”
Last I checked, this was still my blog. So what right do you even have to question this?
Seriously, your comments make absolutely no sense at all and certainly do not add any value to the conversation. Your logic is twisted and mindset juvenile. You have therefore been banned from here. Shoo! View all comments by Veron
Wow! This is getting so darned interesting! I have no idea who this Sun is, but I’m guessing it’s a male. I don’t have a blog but I get similar comments on my freelance articles, and they’re mostly from males. Any comment that even vaguely points to the darker side of a male-oriented society tends to to make the men defensive.
Well, Sun, I was born and raised in India and visit often enough. I know what I’m talking about. Dowry never entered into my marriage or most of my friends’ (and that was 30 years ago), but the depraved system not only exists in contemporary India, it has proliferated over the last couple of decades. Dowry deaths happened back then and now they have esclalated. They are a sad and regretful fact of a rapidly growing population that has become more materialistic over the years. Demanding a dowry is nothing short of greed.
How can you say dowry doesn’t exist anymore? Wasn’t it less than four years ago that Nisha Sharma had her potential in-laws arrested for demanding a ridiculous dowry, and the episode made international headlines? Nisha’s story is only the tip of the iceberg. Nearly 20,000 women die violent deaths every year as a result of dowry problems.
Wake up and smell the coffee, will you! Or should I say tea? View all comments by Shobhan Bantwal
Yes Shobhan, it’s pretty obvious that Sun is a male. I hope your book would be a great success. I think Sun definitely needs a copy of it, although it may seem more like sci-fi to him. View all comments by Veron
Hello!
I am a cousin of Hari :) he sent me the link to your blog since I am a blogger too!
This is a very interesting post … being a “good” Indian girl myself (ahem) I equate giving dowry, no matter how less, to selling sick cattle. It’s like saying “Look, I’ll PAY you to marry my daughter!” Why? Is the daughter so worthless?
Never mind … I’m not commenting further on this issue as it just pisses me off, and idiots like that Sun make it worse.
Moving onto more cheerful things - nice blog! And pretty colours too!
Cheers,
Subhangi View all comments by Subhangi
Thanks, Veron. I sure hope my book will sell well. One of the reasons I started writing it is because of my disdain for the dowry system, and to awaken the rest of the world to the realities of a custom that has evolved into something more disgusting than ever. Although my book is fiction, I have portrayed the story with as much realism as it is possible to infuse into a mainstream book meant to entertain and educate at the same time. I also plan to donate a portion of my book earnings to certain women’s shelters.
Subhangi is right: Dowry is like offering to pay some guy to take a daughter off your hands. In fact, I had originally titled my book “Sold to the Lowest Bidder,” but later changed it to a simpler one, THE DOWRY BRIDE. And the publisher liked it better, too.
Shobhan Bantwal
Author of THE DOWRY BRIDE
The story of one brave woman trapped in India’s dowry system
Release date: Sept. 2007 View all comments by Shobhan Bantwal
Hi,
Dowry is prevalnet in lot of countries around the world. In India it is the girl who gives. In the Middle-east it is the groom, who has to give cash, house, ornaments, banquet, goats & camels as dowry. You will be shocked to know that last year there was article in the newspaper(in Dubai) about a girl applying for divorce within a week of marriage, coz her groom didn’t give the promised dowry!!! Lots of muslim guys here in UAE look for foreign brides since they don’t have the means to pay the exorbitant dowries demanded by their in-laws!!! India, Arabic & African countries are very old, very big in size and population to change overnight, unlike Singapore which is only a city state with educated and propserous citizens. So can’t compare. View all comments by Frederick R.
Veron,
India is an ancient culture , with many worlds woven into eachother. The history and circumstance of ‘dowry’ is a phenomenon of the last 800 years - the period which saw massive Islamic invasions into India , followed by the economic onslaught of the Brits.
For the first time , the land of Kama Sutra and Brahma Sutras became a victim of terror - common folk and women who were untouched in all affairs and wars of state , were attacked repeatedly by the Islamic invaders.
India has been a battle ground of the expansive , inclusive , artistic Indic cultures and the terror of Islam and Christianity !
Indian women suffed the worst - and strange practices emerged as a reaction , with a new-felt need to ‘protect’ , women ! Earlier ’swayamwara’ - or ’self-choice’ was the custom of ancient India , for women - where men of many accomplishments would present themselves and the girl would get to chose her partner ed of choice .
Dowry system started off as a ‘gift’ system , which then became frozen in time as an accepted custom in many parts of India especially during the periods of British colonialism.
Dowry does not represent the prevelant Indian situation , but caused a lot of outrage in a lot of decent people in india through the 60s and 70s when many reported deaths due to harrassment came to notice.
I am glad we are out of that era. and yes , I am an indian male ! View all comments by Rudra
Hi all,
Interesting read. My 2 cents. and don’t mind my english.
The dowry system IS evil. Dwelling into it’s origins may help understand it better, but cannot be used to justify it. From what I know (and I could be totally wrong) the dowry was meant to be the share of the girl from the family estate. Atleast that’s what happened within my family. I have 3 sisters, 2 of them are physicians, yet my parents gave dowry of about 1.5 crores (USD 300000) for each. we just din’t call it dowry and not all is cash. A more imp point is that only 10% of what we gave went to the groom’s family as a gift (yes dowry is illegal in India!) rest was in the name of the bride. I am happy about that.
The amt of dowry given depends/and reflects a family’s social/economic status. Rich families give dowries in millions. So, its not really like selling sick cattle like someone pointed-out.
The the birth of the girl child is/was (both apply) never cherished. Read the UN note on female infanticide in India. Though it’s more prevlent in the impoverished northern areas (does it really matter. Arn’t we all supposed to be indians) it does happen every where, in some form or the other. Newer medical technologies are really helping??
Comming to how fellow indians react to bad news/info about india, I can only say that I am amused when I read people writing on a tangent topic like the rich ancient customs and heritage of the country, when all the discussion is about some bad aspect in Indian society. I think most of the modern middle class indians (i include myself in that) are either ignorant about the real India or are just ashamed to admit the downside. I am glad that some people are generous to admit that it happens only in some families. And wow never in the ’super’ cities. Villages are bad right! And imagine what that few translates into when we are talking of a nation of a billion. BTW 75% of that billion still live in the rural India!
Finally talking of arranged marriages. I can’t help laughing my a** off when people point out that the bride and groom exercise their choice in spouse selection by rejecting offers they dont like. I could only wonder on what basis they make that choice. (mostly in the 1 or so meetings they have before marriage) May be they go for the looks. Isn’t it so superficial!
BTW India is the 4th largest economy and is expected to beat Japan to take the 3rd place shortly. But a ‘lot’ of Indians need to grow-up. Every society has its ills. But closing our eyes to them cannot be our best approach at improvement. View all comments by Avinash
Hi, my name is lynn. I like your website. You talk about why indian woman get married. I also dont understand why they still have arranged marriage and still pay so much money for their drowsy. However, nowadays even they said they are arranged marriage, still they get to see and choose the man or woman they like. That happen to my bf’s brother also. So maybe still some dont have a choice. But still alot of them are more educated nowadays and they have choices who they want to get married even it is so called “arranged” marriage. View all comments by lYNN
The dowry system is illegal in India, because of widespread abuse of it as old social structures started fraying in colonial times.
The basic unit of the India family was the undivided family. Grandma, Grandad and all their married and unmarried sons and unmarried daughters lived in one single family unit both (socially and physically.
Daughters were the necessary exception. They became part of a different undivided family when they married.
Dowry was the system of fair allocation of property to daughters at the time of their joining a new undivided family by reason of marriage. They got their share of inheritance upfront at the wedding and took it with them to the new family.
Sons (and unmarried daughters) never actually “cashed out” their inheritance unless in the rare instance of either chosing to move out and live separate lives, which usually happened as their children became adults, and they became the patriarchal heads of new “undivided” families. Creating a new undivided family was a considerable burden on a couple, as they inherited only part of the estate of his parents, and had to create wealth to bring up his new undivided family to the economic level of their old one.
The natural way to do this was to marry off their sons, and bring in dowry-the inheritance of the new brides from their old families- thus both expanding the family and making it economically better poised to handle itself.
(this is in contrast to the English aristocratic system of inheritance, where all property-in the absence of a will to the contrary-goes to the oldest son.
The system self-regulated itself (sort of). If a just married daughter was sent off to her new home with a stingy share of her inheritance/dowry, her new in-laws/new undivided family would complain, often going to traditional arbitration courts.
And if the new family asked that an excessive or disproportionate share be brought along by the new bride, the old family could refuse the marriage. View all comments by mscommerce
hi everybody
The girl will get her share of property during marriage, its not dowry , its only her share, i believe she had the right for parents property same as her brother.so she must get it.,but it is a shame &crime to ask dowry from grooms side. View all comments by agnes
hi iam so glad to see about that. i can not tell you more that. View all comments by Qasim
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